Abundant Ambition, Not Reluctant Resolutions

Philip All right, we are back.

Sean Man, all are yours.

Philip That’s right.

On our last episode, we had a little poll, a questionnaire, that we kind of put out to see if people wanted us to do this or not. Should we really keep talking, or is this just getting too annoying? Should we talk more and have less pauses? And so at least one person told us to do it again, and so we are doing it again.

Sean We’re totally at least talking to that one person.

Philip That’s right.

Sean If there’s nobody else, we can at least talk to him.

Philip That’s right. So there you go, person. This is for you.

But last time was more of an introduction, kind of bigger picture of All Are Yours, and so we touched a lot of different points about church and communion and business and enjoying life and all of that.

Sean We talked about all those things.

Philip We did.

Sean Did we talk about some book list? Did I talk about books that have protein? Does that sound familiar?

Philip You mentioned, you know, what books kind of summarize our church.

Sean Mmm, okay.

Philip Something like that. But —

Sean So I should come up with that list, because somebody who listened —

Philip Oh, okay.

Sean I forgot to tell you. Somebody who listened said he’d be interested in that book list of — or, protein book list, or books of protein, or something. And I texted him back and I’m like, what are — did I mention? I don’t know.

Philip That’s right.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure the list you did mention — what I remember was books that talk about our church, and what makes our church. And, I mean, that’s one of the reasons why we thought of even trying something like a podcast: because there is no one book that we can point people to and say, hey, this is everything we have.

Sean Right.

Philip And so there are different camps and different tribes. A motley — I think that’s a word I learned from you a couple years ago, and then I came across it in other books.

Sean Well, because when I was growing up there was a rock band, like an eighties hair band, called Mötley Crüe.

Philip Okay.

Sean And I eventually looked up what “motley” meant.

Philip I was not there in the eighties.

Sean Yeah.

Philip But so, coming out of that — a word that Sean used last time was, you know, if you could have your Twitter handle be “reluctant podcaster.” And so reluctance was kind of the first part of the podcast, specifically even regarding podcasting, or listening to podcasts and doing it.

And so we thought maybe we could build a little bit on reluctance, and the opposite of that, even as a lifestyle — how we do the things.

Sean I have decided — it was helpful. I’ll make this part short, because it’s barely interesting. It’s meta.

But, yeah, I said I was a reluctant podcaster, and then when I listened to the first bit of it, I actually sounded reluctant. I didn’t just say the word; it sounded like I didn’t want to be talking. And who wants to listen to that? No wonder it’s boring.

So, I think a couple people did actually give me that sort of affirmation, that it did sound reluctant.

So here I am. I am not reluctant to be recording and talking about this right now. I am not reluctantly podcasting anymore. Even if — yeah, we decide we’re not going to —

Philip That’s right.

Sean We’ll still decide if we’re going to keep doing this in the future. We’re at least doing it now, and, like I say, I am excited about it.

It did actually give me reasons to think about: are there other areas or places that I am doing things, or showing up to things, and in my own heart am I being reluctant to participate in a thing, or do a thing, or go after something I say that I think is good?

But then — it seems like the Bible refers to half-heartedness, or lukewarm. I mean, following Jesus reluctantly is no good. And, obviously, whether or not you have a podcast, that’s not the same thing as following Christ and being obedient to him.

But it did actually really make me think: actually, reluctance is not interesting, and in many ways is even going against what you’re saying that you are trying to do.

Philip If you’re going to do it, you might as well do it.

Sean Right. Well, I agree.

Philip Yeah. You had the email sign-off, for a year or so, of “don’t hold back.”

Sean That started this August, I think.

Philip Oh, that’s the one right now.

Sean Yeah.

Philip You switch them off every year. So that’s the one right now: don’t hold back.

So there you go. So this is the year, then, of not holding back in all of life. And that comes even from the preaching you’re doing in Romans.

Sean Yeah. Romans 12 says, “do not be slothful in zeal,” which you’d think you could just say, hey, go ahead and be zealous. Be fervent. And actually, “be fervent in spirit” I think is the very next phrase in Romans 12. It’s in the middle of Romans 12. But, yeah: don’t be slothful in zeal.

And so I summarized that as “don’t hold back.” And here I was, not following my own little tagline for at least this year.

Philip Well, the Greek word there that you had: spoudē.

Sean Spoudē, yeah.

Philip Yeah. I like that, so I wrote that one down.

Sean Yeah.

Philip And then the other parts of where the Bible brings that up, about zealous, zeal, not holding back.

Sean Yeah. In fact, 2 Peter chapter 1, where it has that whole list of: to your faith add virtue, to your virtue add knowledge, to your knowledge add godliness — maybe self-control, brotherly love, and then love itself. I think that’s mostly it.

It starts out “be diligent,” and that’s spoudē. So that’s “be zealous.” Don’t hold back in seeing this great — you have faith; make it stronger and add to it. And when you add to it, keep adding.

And by the time you get to the end of that: if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being unfruitful.

So I didn’t even think about that when we were talking about the idea of vision, or goals, or ambition, or things like that. But, yeah, the zeal to — even just in our own Christian lives — be making progress. And even the commands to do that. So, not being slothful in zeal, and seeing good things and making them more, making them stronger, is actually a part of making our calling and election sure.

So even as Calvinists, we have lots of work to do on the ground, on ourselves, to be making progress.

Philip Right. Well, and it does seem like at least the kind of Christian culture we grew up in, we’re coming out of, that is in the background for us and for a lot of people that we talk to, is more of a defensive culture.

Defending the truth, defending what we stand for, or whatnot. And it’s not as much offensive. It’s not as much going and taking dominion of something — whether that’s of your own life, or then actually building. So there’s more fighting to protect, maybe, than actually building something that is good, and having that diligence to do that.

Sean I mean, from your background: what is going into that? What do you think is making people more on that defensive side?

Philip Well, my upbringing — all the stories that I grew up with, the narrative that I grew up with, was very much defensive, very much bunker, right?

So my parents came to America right after the Soviet Union fell, and then that’s when I was born. And so that was very fresh in their minds.

So my grandpa — this is my mom’s dad — spent a total of twelve years in prison for the faith. It was four separate times, so not consecutively, but his total term length was twelve years there. So in the seventies and eighties in the Soviet Union.

And so he was very proactive about defending the faith, defending the truth, at the risk of imprisonment and death. And so, again, it’s that kind of framework and narrative that he raised his kids in.

My dad refused to pledge allegiance to the Soviet Union in taking up arms to go into battle in the Soviet military, based on religious reasons. And so, allegiance to the Soviet Union assumed a rejection of God; it included allegiance to atheism.

And so he spent, I think, six months in a psych ward being re-educated for his crazy thoughts. So, if he doesn’t agree with pledging allegiance to the Soviet Union, then obviously he’s crazy, and so he needs to get re-educated. So, straitjackets, drugs pumped into him.

And then when they decided to release him out of that, he had it on his documents that he was insane, or mentally unstable. I mean, he lives in Lynnwood right now, so he seems to be okay to me.

But so that was stained with him for even employment, or any kind of — so that was like his social credit, right? That was there.

And so, again, it’s that kind of fighty, defensive, they’re-out-to-get-us mindset. And so I was raised with a lot of that: government is not on your side, cops are no good. And so there wasn’t really anything of, hey, we could actually go build something. We could go and do something in society. It’s more about, we need to protect our family, protect ourselves, because they’re out to get us.

And so, bringing that here, and me having to even learn what that looks like coming out of that narrative — of, hey, we ought not just to defend, we ought to go and build — in some sense was liberating, but in another sense was also weighty and burdensome.

It seems like it might be more difficult to build than to protect, in the sense of risk and ambition and diligence and self-control. If they’re coming to attack you, you have no choice but to defend yourself. But for you to actually go build, you have to have zeal and not be reluctant.

Sean Yeah. I think it’s way easier to — because we’re totally in a battle. The Bible definitely is saying, from Genesis 3, the enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, and that enmity continues. And now that Satan himself cannot get at Jesus, he’s totally going after Jesus’ people. And we have even just our own flesh that we’re told that we need to war against in many ways. So you’ve got the world, the flesh, and the devil. We are totally in a spiritual warfare. I agree with all of that.

And also, fear is way easier to sell than joy. Joy you’d think would be a thing that would get people motivated, but it actually seems easier to motivate people negatively than positively. And selling fear is a way to get more donations than presenting a vision of a project.

And, again, it’s both; it’s not needing to be one or the other. But I get to have such important-seeming feelings if I’m mad at an enemy. And in most cases we’re just not in places where we actually need to take up arms. Maybe someday that’ll actually happen. But at the moment, where we live, we’re still relatively safe in a lot of ways — physically safe.

But we can feel like we’re crazily involved, because we can be critical, because we can complain. We wouldn’t call it complaining, necessarily; we’d call it not compromising. We’d call it part of the fight, that we can see how bad it is — this person’s craziness, or this government’s injustice — and we can feel like we then are virtuous, because we are seeing it right. And then don’t actually have to do anything about it other than just complain.

And fear is easier to get some kind of satisfaction out of. At some point that’s a sick satisfaction.

Philip Right.

Sean That I am content being upset, that makes me feel like I am doing something. And it doesn’t, like you said, require the same amount of risk-taking to potentially fail. How am I going to fail at complaining about somebody’s ridiculous behavior?

Philip Right.

Sean But if I am trying to actually get their attitude to change, if I’m actually trying to get a law to change, or I’m trying to change the attitude, the vibe, of a city — well, there’s lots of ways I can see how that’s not working.

But if I just can sit back and look at how bad it is — well, who is even going to tell me that I am wrong in seeing how bad it is? I might be bad at seeing how bad it is, but at least I feel different about it than trying to make it good.

So preachers, I do actually think, are some of the worst at motivating people by fear, and so then you get into that defensive posture.

Obviously the way that you’ve described your grandpa in Russia — yeah, well, that’s actual persecution. That is a tangible fight that’s taken place. And that was appropriate for him, to defend the faith, to get the badge of crazy —

Philip Right.

Sean — to not just do what they say.

And also, if we’re only always behaving like that, or like we could be in that situation tomorrow, then our vision, our goals, are necessarily going to be pretty myopic, pretty narrow, and inevitably not as fruitful.

Trying to think, like, okay, if a farmer was just trying to be defensive, and all he did was build fences. Well, hey, look, I’m building something, I’m doing something. I’m building fences to keep the animals out that are going to eat my crop — and he never actually sows, and he never actually waters, and he never actually then harvests. But his fence looks awesome.

Philip Right. Yeah, like, what’s the point of keeping the animals out?

Sean Yeah.

Philip You’ve called it before FOG: fellowship of grievance.

Sean I got that from Doug Wilson.

Philip Oh, okay.

And then I think you’ve had — is it FOBIG? Fellowship of better informed grievances?

Sean Yeah.

Philip And so, especially in today’s, like, Twitter culture and all of that — you definitely have a lot of FOBIGs going on. Very well informed people with grievances, and very quick to criticize and condemn and throw the culture under the bus. And a lot of the time rightfully so. But, yes, that is very different work than actually building something that is then worth protecting.

Sean Yeah. Well, so, here we are as dispensationalists — part of the reason for these kinds of conversations, or recording them.

Philip You used that as a plural. You’re putting me in that category.

Sean I am. I am putting you in that category. We can have you deny that later, but in the meantime we’ll work from an assumption.

As dispensationalists — the dispies are the ones who, in a caricature format, they’re building their bunkers. They are seeing how bad it is. And because we read the Bible literally, and presumably then we can read the newspaper literally, we really see how bad it is. The Bible says it’s going to get bad. We’re going to hell in a handbasket, baby. So, like, build your bunker and wait for Jesus to come back, rapture us, or get us out of here, or take over, all those kinds of things.

So even dispensationalism has had too much of a hiding, a bunkering, a waiting — a waiting passively — mentality. Because, obviously, we have to wait. The Bible requires us to wait. We can’t make time go faster. We can’t make Jesus come back faster, even though we can pray for his kingdom to come, which we’re supposed to be doing.

But in the meantime, he wants us to wait for him. But what are we supposed to be doing while we wait? And he doesn’t actually say “go hide.”

Did you ever read The Benedict Option? The book The Benedict Option? You know about it.

Philip Yeah, yeah. No, I’ve read Saint Benedict’s actual —

Sean Yeah.

Philip — like, his rules, yeah. Oh, no — by Rod Dreher? Yeah, no, I haven’t.

Sean Yeah. I mean, the book was fine. And I know that there are different — The Boniface Option. And I actually played off of that in a series on Kuyperian dispensationalism, and suggested a third option. Not just to be cute and clever, but actually because I think that it is — I think it’s found in Romans 11.

But, anyway, The Benedict Option is much more of: take your Christian people and focus on you, focus on your community, sort of circle the wagons. I don’t remember if he talks about having a parallel society or a subculture, but that’s definitely what it is. So, getting the ideas from the monasteries, of removing yourself from culture and society and just trying to protect what you have.

And part of Dreher’s point is that then, when society collapses, you can come back out. But you don’t know if that’s going to happen, or you don’t know when that’s going to happen.

Of course, the Roman Empire did actually collapse, and it took a while, but what the monks had preserved was really valuable. So there is something good in the — I mean, not preserving monastery culture, but the culture of a monastery preserved a bunch of writings when they didn’t have printing press, or obviously the internet. They were making their own handwritten copies of old books and things like that. That part is fine.

But it is much more of a bunker mentality. And dispies are the ones who, like I said, are most regularly thought of in that way.

And I actually think for a dispy to do that requires the dispy to be inconsistent with how he claims he’s reading the Bible. Because there’s too many other things in the Bible that require working while waiting — glad working while waiting. Yes, defending the faith once for all delivered to the saints. But doing that in a way that is jealousable.

And I don’t think that when Paul was magnifying his ministry to the Jews — and I think then calling all Gentiles who believe in Christ as Lord, so, in the Messiah — I don’t think that when he was calling the Gentiles to live in a way that provoked Jews to jealousy, he was talking about how we could create Gentile monasteries. As an illustration.

Philip Right.

Sean Right. The Jews are jealous of our bunkers. And I suppose —

Philip Quality bunkers.

Sean Yeah. The Jews have the Iron Dome. So, yeah, maybe they are actually interested in our bunker technology in a way; they just have put those over the city instead of underground. But that’s mixing the metaphor.

The point is that that is not — the defensive posture, and certainly the fearful posture, where we just fear what is going to happen to us, and so we’re trying to just not mess up, we’re trying to not get hurt, we’re trying to not be worldly — those fear-driven choices are not actually provoking Jews to jealousy.

Philip Well — sorry — assuming dispensational eschatology. So, just taking that, specifically even comparing it to postmillennial eschatology, where this world is going to burn, right?

So, that’s a big — a lot of the stones that the postmils throw at dispensationalists is that, you know, this world’s going to burn, so that’s why you guys don’t care, that’s why you’re uninvolved.

And a lot of those stones are also rightfully thrown, because a lot of people do act like that. A lot of the confessing dispies do act — was it — is this a rumor, or — I never actually heard John MacArthur say something about arranging the furniture on the Titanic.

Sean Yeah, I don’t know if he came up with that illustration, but I’ve definitely heard him use it a bunch of times.

Philip Okay, right. So it’s like, useless, right? Arranging the furniture on the Titanic. It’s all going down.

And so that is definitely things that they actually say, things that the dispies — the way they live — and then stones get thrown at that.

But the biblical model, the cycle, the way God works, the gospel, the way the church grows, the way we’re called to live, is that death and resurrection model. That is the typical picture of the way God works, and the way he plays throughout history.

And even when Paul is talking about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, he’s talking about seeds being sown, and then those kernels having to die before they can rise to glory.

And so, this death and resurrection, the kernel that dies — dies in one kind of body, and then it rises in a much more glorious body. So when I think about the earth being purged and dying in that way, I’m thinking about it dying and then resurrecting into glory, in that kind of framework, that kind of mindset. Not dying and being obliterated and no more, but becoming a new creation, so to speak, altogether.

And so when we think about our own life — I mean, yeah, some people live like that, I guess — but it’s not that, okay, I’m going to die at some point, so it doesn’t matter at all how I live. We have seventy years, at most eighty, right, the Bible says. We could live longer now, with drugs and other things. But we are investing the time we have now, even though it’s short, because we believe that in the glorified state these investments will be resurrected and brought some kind of profit, right? There’s a result of our work here.

And in the same way, our caring for the earth and the things of earth, even in that kind of purging eschatology — I’m thinking about it as death and resurrection. It matters what the condition of the seed that you sow is, so that it rises to glory.

Sean Yeah. It’s disappointing to see it in our own hearts, let alone as we look around our church, and definitely when you think about the state of the church in the twenty-first century, the Western church, the church in the United States.

We don’t want to die. We don’t want to make those sacrifices. So — Jesus was pretty clear about taking up the cross, following him daily; you need to die daily. Those who try to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for his sake and the gospel will find it.

And that’s not to say that a bunch of people aren’t actually Christians, because we are saved by faith, and that faith just needs to be as small as a mustard seed. But there is a reluctance — a reluctance to sacrifice, a reluctance to lose our lives.

And, again, if that’s supposed to be doing it daily, that means Jesus is largely thinking of the dying as to our selfishness and to our comfort, not necessarily my bodily existence. Because you can only do that once; you can’t do that daily.

But there is a reluctance to lose our lives for the sake of that fruit. And so we’re like seeds trying to stay as close to on the surface as possible. We just don’t want to get all the way buried, because getting buried doesn’t feel good.

And, yeah, it’s little wonder, then, that we have the little fruit that we do. Because, again, even as Christians, I think there’s a measure of trying to protect our lives.

I’m not saying that this is about — you can’t drive a nice car, or you can’t make sure that your house is in order, or those kinds of things. But it’s like, I will only risk so much, because I prefer being comfortable. And that’s the opposite of the Christian life.

Philip Right. And so, in some way, I think there is a misunderstanding of the theology, of the eschatology. But in another way, that kind of rational thought is a mask behind emotional reluctance.

Sean Right.

Philip And so we just don’t want, like you said, to die. We don’t want to sacrifice. We don’t want to do what it takes to bear fruit.

And so we put in front of that some kind of theology, or eschatology, or cognitive thinking of, this is why we ought not to. And then that kind of — if not borders sin, is sin — of disobedience, to actually die when it’s required, in your work, in your family. To obey and then bear fruit out of that.

And it’s not just with dispies; you see that across the board, whatever the theological framework. And even, in some sense, is why people stay in their FOGs, just criticizing and complaining — because that requires less actual obedience, which requires death, and that kind of lifestyle.

Sean Yeah, I agree that it’s not just dispies. I like starting with the groups I’m a part of — and, no, I’m not saying you don’t. I’m just saying, I get tired of listening to preachers in particular, and our politicians do it too —

Philip Right.

Sean — who can always see everybody else’s problems and not see their own.

And there is a time for that, absolutely. But I try to confess my own sin before even my kids’ sin. I try to confess the sins that our church would have before the church down the road, or our theological group more than another theological group.

And, yeah, so, dispies are inconsistent in a way.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean That does, at some point, I agree, it’s sinful disobedience to be so panicky and anxious.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean Yeah, I have thought for a while that maybe one of the most discouraging things that eventually comes out is when the spiritual leadership of a group — so, say, like the pastors and the elders of a church — when they stop growing. That there’s hardly anything more discouraging to other people than when the leaders stop growing. And definitely if those leaders decide, okay, then this is the ceiling, and nobody is growing past here.

Philip Right.

Sean Then inevitably they have to start suppressing people and controlling them, to whatever degree they think they can prohibit growth. And that is way, way frustrating.

So, in 1 Timothy 4:15, Paul is writing to Timothy — that’s right after the “let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example” in a variety of areas. And then he says, take pains with these things, be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to all.

And then in the very next verse he says, pay close attention to yourself and to the teaching; persist in this, for in doing so you’ll save both yourself and your hearers. Which is a crazy idea. We’re careful with who is saving. So this is obviously not Paul telling Timothy that Timothy is redemptively atoning for the sins of any of the people that he’s serving. And yet the Greek word is sōzō. I mean, it’s the typical word for salvation, our salvation from God, in the Scripture.

So Paul is saying that there is a work that needs to happen, which includes paying attention. And why? Well, paying attention to the things that you need to make progress in. Paying attention to the areas where there’s sin that needs to be repented from. Paying attention to ways you can still grow.

And those verses, for well over a decade now, keep coming back to me as reasons why I know I have to keep growing.

I then, like, at the end of the year — it’s not just because resolutions are awesome. There are times that I have made New Year’s resolutions. I don’t think that it has to be resolutions. For the last few years I have been following more the idea of a theme for the year. There’s a guy — my wife listens to a podcast, and he talks about yearly themes.

I could talk more about what distinguishes a theme from a goal or from a resolution. I don’t really care what program, so to speak, or what even vocabulary somebody uses about it. And it doesn’t obviously have to be the end of a calendar year. Could be any Sunday. It could be any Tuesday afternoon that you realize there’s a thing that really needs to be changed.

And maybe it’s about someone’s physical exercise. Paul doesn’t say — in fact, it’s in 1 Timothy 4 as well, earlier in the chapter — there’s nothing wrong with physical exercise, it’s just that that doesn’t have as much profit as godliness. So, exercise yourself unto godliness.

Well, what’s the exercise plan to become more godly? It probably doesn’t just happen by not thinking about it. So, to me it seems reasonable to spend a little bit of time reviewing my growth in godliness. Where am I weak? What would I like it to be? So, if I was complete in Christ, what would that look like?

And I do think that that’s going to look different for different people. A man and a woman, it’s going to look different. A husband and a wife in those roles, that’s going to look different. Somebody who owns a business, somebody who is a pastor — some of the ways that their godliness comes out is going to look different, and that’s fine.

But then everybody’s got to be thinking about how they’re going to make progress, how they are going to become more like Christ.

And, again, the end of the year is a nice time to do it. Not just because people in the world are joining gyms — and that’s fine. And criticizing people who joined the gym for three weeks and then quit — well, at least they did it for three weeks. So, good job. That’s something. Next year try for five. Whatever.

I’m not as fussy about people who don’t reach their goals. I mean, I don’t know — did you get a few steps further down? Like, great. So keep going. As opposed to then just sit and wallow in your puddle of sad, your sad failed goals for the year.

Philip Feeling sorry for yourself.

Sean Or, yeah: my goal is to feel less self-pity next year. Well, how you going to do that? Well, stop freaking out that you didn’t meet all the things that were on your list.

But, yeah, because you also can’t necessarily — like a five-year-old who wants to see if he’s taller every day. “Mom, measure me again today.” Like, that gets old, and that’s not really how it works.

That said, a five-year-old probably is going to be growing visibly, obviously in progress, a few times throughout the year. So, yeah, make a plan to check in on that.

So, again, I am not opposed to the end of the year being a time of thinking about, well, what was this year like, and what sins do I still really need to kill? Or, in Colossians 3, put off. Put to death, and put off. What sins remain that I still can repent from?

What virtues would be really good, if I prayed for God’s grace to increase in such virtues, or these fruits? How would that be a better blessing for my family, for my people? And I can always see ways I could be more of a blessing.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And then spending a little bit of time to figure out what that might look like seems good to me.

I mean, you have — we like to joke about it, but it’s not a joke — you have a spreadsheet that is a seventy-year plan?

Philip No, it’s until I’m seventy.

Sean Until you’re seventy. Okay, so it is a seventy-year plan.

Philip I didn’t make it when I was zero.

Sean It’s encompassing seventy years of your life.

Philip Right, yeah.

Sean Yeah.

Philip Yeah. I usually don’t share too much about my approach to planning and getting things done, because I do actually think that people are going to think I’m weird. Like, I don’t think it’s as helpful for most people.

Sean On the principles of why you want to grow? Or on the fact that you use a spreadsheet that falls into your seventy years?

Philip Yeah, the way I think about it.

But, yeah, I’m a very meticulous planner. So it’s, like, long-term and detailed. And then I get more detailed closer.

Sean Yeah, so it seems to me, by the way, that you need a Gantt chart, not a spreadsheet. Because isn’t the Gantt — because these are projects that then do have some overlap in them. So you can’t get them all in their own individual cells.

Philip That’s right. You can make Gantt charts in Excel.

Sean Out of Excel?

Philip Oh yeah. Man, I have a world to show you.

Sean So are you putting any of those into Gantt?

Philip I have some Gantt charts. But, yeah, those — again, it gets weird. Like, my wife, she humors me.

Sean Yeah.

Philip She’s kind to me.

Sean This is why the Lord gave us the wives that he did, so that we don’t get precious, finicky natures.

Philip I think she is — yeah, she’s not as interested. She’s not interested in all the plans and aspirations and the way I get to it. Again, she’s kind, and she is my help meet, so it’s good.

Sean Well, we have established that she is not our podcast audience. So you don’t have to try to convince her right now.

Philip Right.

But one of the reasons why I try to be diligent in planning and then executing on those plans is — I do have a category where God just gives us things. He lets things happen, for sure, that we don’t pray about. And so most of the things actually land in that category. So, things like breathing and living and eating and rain and sun and all of that, right? These are just God pouring out a whole ton of blessings that we don’t even think about, or ask for, or know that we need. And so we start in that place of gratitude. We start in the place of being thankful for what God gives us.

But then one of the things that God also gives us is certain kinds of desires, certain kinds of things that we want to aspire to. So, assuming that we are delighting ourselves in the Lord, and then our desires are lining up with his will — he is feeding us those ambitions.

But so, the thing that I hold to is, I don’t think those things are just going to happen on their own. And so I think for a lot of people — and I am definitely tempted in this a lot — where people would call it wishful thinking. “It’d be great if. It’d be great if five years from now I would be here, or ten years from now I’d be here. Or when I’m a grandpa, I’d be at this level, I would have this kind of thing. That would be great.”

Well, that would be great. And so, what can you do to actually make some progress toward those aspirations, toward those endeavors?

And so, there’s a lot of things that I want, and in some sense I am tormented with the desires — whether or not they’re from God, but there are a lot of them, and so I want to do everything at once. And so having a longer-term plan helps my contentment in being okay with not getting to everything right now. Maybe I’ll get to that later. But whatever I’m trying to get to, I want to make sure I’m getting progress toward that. And so that’s why I have longer-term work and then shorter-term progress that I’m working toward.

So that’s one of the principles. But some of the approaches to that — these are things that I’ve learned from a whole bunch of other people, and so I don’t even know all the sources, but something like exponential results versus linear results.

And exponential results looks like nothing is happening for a long time, because you’re trying to build up the substance, you’re trying to feed the mill, right? And so it looks like it’s a plateau — and that’s kind of the five-year-old checking his height every day. But doing the kinds of things toward exponential results, as opposed to just toward linear results. And so having longer-term plans that can get to that.

And so, compound interest is something like that, right? So you’re looking at exponential results with compound investing.

But these are just things that are included in that longer-term plan. But I do think that a lot of us are too quick to grow complacent, because we either don’t see the results, or we see the work that it takes to produce those results. And so it’s easy to get discouraged, to stop doing the effort, because we’re not seeing the results.

And even in our podcast, we have the —

Sean Oh, we have results.

Philip Right.

Sean We are setting ourselves up for an exponential — money, right?

Philip That’s exactly right.

Sean Yeah.

Philip But so, in those exponential endeavors, I’m trying to work at consistency in habits, as opposed to just leaps in things. So, building habits of work that then, hopefully, produces fruit down the road. But, again, in those habits you’re not seeing it right away. You’re trying to work toward fruit later. So you’re investing toward the future in that way.

Sean So, are you allowed to talk about any one or few habits that you’re really trying to drill on currently? Like, things that you’re — I mean, are you a resolution — you’re not really a resolution maker?

Philip Yeah, I’m not really a resolution maker, I guess, in that way.

I do have — so I’ll share a little bit. So, yeah, the — you asked the seventy-year; it’s until I’m seventy — so the spreadsheet kind of pinpoints different things. Then I have a little bit more specific plans for ten years. I call it “ten years in view.” So that’s more of what I’m working — everything past ten years is just kind of, maybe someday. Ten years, I’m actively trying to work in that way.

And then, based on those ten years, I do have one-year goals that I’m plugging in. So ten years is, okay, I want to get there; so then the one-year goal, how does that work through? And then that’s like my annual plan. And so that includes reflection on the previous year — what I’m thankful for, what I set from the previous year that didn’t get accomplished and that I would like to, and then where I’d like to keep going forward.

But then, based on that, I have thirteen weeks at a time. So thirteen weeks is a quarter. And so thirteen weeks at a time is what I’m trying to work toward. And that’s where I want to get much better: at actually being more diligent and working those thirteen weeks at a time, with weekly milestones.

And then the daily plan — I think I got this from, ah, I don’t remember his name. Challies. Tim Challies?

Sean Challies.

Philip Challies.

Sean Yeah. Tim Challies.

Philip Yeah. I think he calls his daily plan his coram Deo. So, in God’s presence, in the presence of God. And so, living every day in the presence of God.

But, ten-year plan — so I consider myself young. I mean, you’re a grandpa twice.

Sean Yeah.

Philip I am not. But if my oldest has a kid when I had a kid, I’ll be a grandpa at forty-two.

Sean Okay.

Philip So there you go. So that’s in my ten-year plan: potential grandpa.

But so, the Bible does talk about young men and the kinds of things that they should focus on. And so, like, Proverbs 20:29 says, the glory of young men is their strength, but the splendor of old men is their gray hair. And so, that theme of strength.

1 John 2:14 — and, yeah, maybe he’s talking about spiritual youth in some way, but he does say, “I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.” So, again, it’s that theme, it’s connecting youth and strength, youth and overcoming something in that way.

Whereas old age has experience. Old age has wisdom.

Sean Maybe.

Philip Maybe. Yeah, well, at least experience. So, if it’s not wisdom — right, so, 20:29, the splendor of old men is their gray hair. So, whether or not they’ve learned from that experience, they do have experience.

And so that idea of strength is —

Sean Did you say ten-year?

Philip Ten-year.

So, the idea of strength and fitness — strength and fitness in different areas. So, okay, well, this is for the people who are interested.

Sean Yeah.

Philip So I have five areas of responsibilities that I work in. And so this just helps me shift gears in all of the desires and ambitions that I have, right?

And so there’s personal discipleship — that’s kind of the first one I’m looking at, and even connected to Paul telling Timothy to pay close attention to yourself. My household. My work and wealth. My church. And then my civil involvement.

But in that personal discipleship, I have subcategories there. And so, my personal discipleship, that’s the theme of strength and fitness. And so, strength I take as load-bearing capacity — you’re able to carry load. And fitness I take as being fitted for the work, so, being equipped for it.

And so I have four areas in that personal discipleship: my spiritual discipline, so being strong and fit in faith; my mental discipline, being strong and fit of mind; physical discipline, being strong and fit of body; and then administrative discipline, and I call that strong and fit of scale — so being able to scale my outputs in that way.

And so that theme of strength and fitness is what I’m continually trying to work toward in all of those subcategories. So, spiritual, mental, physical, and administrative: how can I carry more load, and how can I be better equipped for the work, in each one of those areas?

So there was some stuff that I got through this year, and then more that I’m trying to work toward next year, kind of in each one of those areas. But there you go.

Sean I like it. Which all still fits back into your seventy-year, ten —

Philip One.

Sean Thirteen.

Philip Yes. Seventy, ten, one, thirteen weeks. And then weekly. Coram Deo.

Sean Yeah.

Philip But, yeah, for — I know, like, your wife, that kind of stuff freaks her out, maybe. I don’t know if that’s too strong of a word, but she doesn’t like it, I think she’s said before.

Sean Yeah, well, I think she in particular — I don’t know that she minds the goals as much as she doesn’t really like when a thing is on the calendar a year out, or six months out, or when she knows that she’s supposed to be at a place at this time on this day. She feels like calendar prison is a thing. Not necessarily the making progress or the goals; she likes that.

Philip Yeah, see, for me it’s like a riverbed. The waters rise high, and the whole river could overflow, and then I’m just everywhere. And that’s not helpful; that’s not a good river.

But to have high borders on my riverbed, to make sure that the current is flowing forward as opposed to destroying everything around it, flooding everything. And so the different things that I want to get to or do, I need some kind of funnel, some kind of direction.

So, I guess, a prison is a way to see it — but to be boxed in in the sense of the way a riverbed is boxed in, is the way my mind works, at least.

Sean Yeah. Well, I think that — whether or not ninety-eight out of a hundred people are like you, or thinking about it like you, or not — there’s got to be some version of it. Because every guy that we know has a body. Like, if they’re alive, they’ve got a body.

Philip Right.

Sean And most of the men that we know either already have a family, or we would want them to have a family. We are talking to them about how family is good. And they’re going to need to feed that family somehow, so, some kind of work or job responsibility. Also, most of the guys that we know, we think, should be doing their part in a church body.

And it seemed like maybe there was a —

Philip Civil service was the last one.

Sean Sure.

Philip And the first one — body was just a part of it, but overall, personal discipleship.

Sean Yeah. So everybody’s got their — those are not, like, unique categories.

Philip Right.

Sean So whether or not you are approaching it uniquely, in how meticulously you’re considering each one or not — everybody actually needs to think about how they’re doing in those areas.

Philip Well, and, like, that “all are yours,” for me, definitely has a big part of that, in the reason I think about that.

So, if Christ is my Lord, he is my Lord over all of me, right? And so — I remember praying about this, like, early on in my faith, about God helping me submit all of myself and all that I do. So, all that I am and all that I do, under him. And so that’s where every area of my life, to be in subjection to Christ, and how that plays out.

And a word that I like, kind of on that note, that the Bible does use, is abound. To abound in good works.

Sean Yeah.

Philip And so the idea of abundance — I think at ECS we use “copious producer.”

Sean Right.

Philip Right. And so —

Sean Plentiful.

Philip Right.

Sean Abounding.

Philip Right.

Sean Prolific. Yep.

Philip Yeah. And so that’s what I mean by the administrative discipline, strength and fitness of scale. Like, what can I do to be better equipped, to abound in good works, to abound in the things that I do?

And so, kind of a verse that I really like on that — and this is when Paul is talking to the Corinthians about giving, so the context there is giving, but I think it’s applicable in other areas. But 2 Corinthians 9:8 says, “And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.”

And so there’s a lot of abounding and a lot of “all.” So, all the grace that you need, God can abound it to you, so that you have all sufficiency, you have everything you need, so that in all the things and at all the times you may abound in every good work.

And so that seems very encompassing. There’s a lot that is there. There’s a lot that’s overflowing.

And so having that kind of substance, having that kind of — I don’t know if “lifestyle” you want to call it — but being that kind of person that is trusting God for his abundance of grace, and then himself abounding in good works out of that, is what I’m trying to shoot for. And that’s the kind of person I think I’d like to be more of: in submission to Christ, abounding in all the things.

Sean I don’t really know how we could improve upon that as the end of this particular episode. Other than — okay, because you and I both are more, we like the concepts, and you are also, again, meticulous in some of the details.

But if a guy wanted to put that passage into his life, after he memorized it, and so he’s meditating on it — what would be the practical — do you have any practical — as anybody who has heard me talk knows, I hate tips. So I’m not asking for tips or hacks.

Philip No, you dare not ask for tips.

Sean But are there any — what steps might a person take, if they wanted to get more of the “all,” to be more abounding?

Philip Yeah.

Sean You would not say that they need a seventy-year spreadsheet to start with. That’s not step one.

Philip I think I haven’t met a person who I think needs that. So I would not recommend — I do think for a lot of people that is — that’s why I don’t even share that. Like, this is the first — it’s like, this is being recorded.

Sean Yeah.

Philip And it’s going on the internet.

Sean To that one person.

Philip That’s right.

Yeah, so the seventy-year plan, or whatever — even the ten-year plan, or yearly, whatever it is — I would not say to start there.

I live under the impression that I myself, and everybody that I’m interacting with, knows more than they’re applying. Knows more than they’re actually doing. And that, typically, when people are asking, you know, what do I do — they already have that answer. They already know what they are to do.

Where I would say to start is, start obeying with what’s in front of you. What is your conviction right now, in the things that you’re able to start obeying — coram Deo, in the presence of God, today? Living today in God’s presence.

And that obedience requires a certain kind of death. That obedience requires a certain kind of getting under the ground, and doing that.

And so, whatever stage of life you’re in — you’re a young guy who is not married, has no kids: what is that obedience that you know you need to be doing today that you’re not doing? Don’t be worried about the next year or the next ten years if you’re not doing what you need to be doing today.

If you’re a husband and a father with kids: what kind of death to self is being demanded of you that you are resisting? Where are you resisting to be bothered by your wife, by your kids, in that household endeavor? At work, what is it that you know you need to be doing that you’re not doing?

So that’s where I would point people to start: living coram Deo, living today. Not starting with that longer term, but being obedient, dying to self, in those different areas today. And then trusting that God is able to make his grace abound to you in those things — so, having all sufficiency in all things at all times. So he’s able to do all that, he’s able to give you everything you need for you to abound today.

So, nothing else you need to know. You need to start doing what you know.

Sean That works.

Philip Yeah. All right. That’s it. Sign off.

Sean We did it.

Philip We did it. That’s number two. We’ll see if there’s going to be a number three. All right.